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Welcome to the Sound Off Discussion Board, where parents from all walks of life and all parts of the world come together in one place to share their opinions and thoughts about the question of the week. Please remember that everyone is entitled to their opinion and the freedom to express it. Obscene posts are unwelcome and shall be removed from the board. Please keep in mind that this is a public board. Never post personal information that you would be uncomfortable sharing with others. Comments about this board should be sent to iParenting's Webmaster. Thank you for contributing! If you have a suggestion for the question of the week, send it to feedback@iparenting.com.

Should the "morning after pill" be sold over the counter?

For archived topics, click here.

Saraj~
Again I am curious why you spell women with a y instead of an e??

No one made the choice for me to have an abortion. I made that choice myself and I felt guilty to the point of severe depression. PUHLEEZ do not speak for me - you have no idea what my experience was as I have no idea what yours was.

I think we all are intelligent enough to know that statistics will show whatever the stat taker wants them to.

Hope everyone has a blessed New Year's.
Margarita
Saturday, December 27, 2003 at 16:22:47 (EST)
NO!!! That's like saying it's OK to go out, have unprotected sex and get pregnant. No worries. Just pop a pill.

GIVE

ME

A

BREAK!

Yolanda
Yolanda
Saturday, December 27, 2003 at 15:54:31 (EST)
Saraj - a shame your mom didn't abort YOU!!
Disgusted
Saturday, December 27, 2003 at 11:59:28 (EST)
I wanted to add one more thing. For any of you interested...it was really a wake up call for me. I had always heard that abortions were so incredibly dangerous..then I compiled these facts from numerous places. (ie...my OBGYN, health magazines, health books, nurses...) Here is a list of health risks for womyn when pregnancies are carried to full term...and then a list of health risks to womyn having an abortion....
______________________________

During pregnancies carried to full term:

1. Blood vessel changes. This means that pregnant womyn have 13 times greater risk of a stroke and 5 times the risk of a burst blood vessel in the brain.

2. Urinary tract infections...these can lead to premature labor.

3. High mineral absorption...lead might cause damage to brain tissue and ddt to breast tissue.

4. Back sprains and herniated discs are common because of softened tissues.

5. Gastrointestinal problems...which m eans it is not uncommon for a new mom to return to the hospital for gallbladder removal. (and hemorroid treatment)

6. Gestational diabetes affects 4 to 6 percent of pregnant womyn. It causes many risks to both the mother and the fetus, while placing mother at risk for diabetes later in life.

----------

Pregnancies ending in abortion:

1. There is no eveidence that abortion is harmful to the health of the mother. It does not endanger future childbearing, and research by the CDC shows there is no increase in etopic pregnancies, stillbirths, miscarriages, or infertility as a result of abortion. Studies also document no lingering psychological aftereffects. Most womyn experience relief.

2. Only one in 200,000 who have legal abortions in the first trimester are at risk of dying from the procedure-which is 1/7th the number of womyn who die from childbirth.

3. Carrying a pregnancy to full term has 11 times more risk for death than that from abortion.

4. Womyn giving childbirth are 100 times more likely than womyn having abortons to need major abdominal surgery to manage complications.

~Saraj
Saraj
Saturday, December 27, 2003 at 11:05:44 (EST)
PS...ABSOLUTELY...the morning after pill should be sold over the counter. I am thrilled that we are so close to this!
It will prevent thousands of unwanted pregnancies.


Saraj
Saturday, December 27, 2003 at 10:49:17 (EST)
MADDIE~

I also had two abortions. I also never regretted them...we are a mere few of womyn who are brave enough to admit this. If there are ladies out there who feel guilty about having an abortion, I'd have to say it was because someone else made the choice for them.
It is very important that a womyn makes her own choice and is in no way influenced to keep a baby, OR to abort it. I am sure there are many new moms out there who wish they weren't moms yet, even though they may love their child (children). But you are right...it is just that so many don't talk about it.

Thank you for speaking up Maddie!

~Saraj
Saraj
email: beautifulasba@charter.net
Saturday, December 27, 2003 at 10:47:54 (EST)
Concerned Parent: I understood what your point was. As I know next to nothing about HOW the morning after pill works, I am not going to touch on that point. What I did disagree with however was the implication that because she is only a cnm she couldn't possibly know what she was talking about versus an obgyn. If that is not what you intended, forgive me but that is how it came accross.

Maddie ~ I don't think anyone here is going to attack you. I don't hate you. I however did feel very guilty about my abortion and am glad that a relationship with the Lord did develop from it.
Margarita
Saturday, December 27, 2003 at 02:31:28 (EST)


Someone said below about how everyone who has posted that said they had abortions felt guilty about it. Well, I don't. I've had two. One was at 7 weeks because I was too young to care for a child and did not want to go through pregnancy. I don't feel guilty about it, as I took all precautions to prevent pregnancy and got pregnant anyway. The second was with a planned pregnancy where our baby had a birth defect that was incompatible with life. There was no way she would live outside the womb, it was unlikely she would survive birth, and there was an increased chance of me suffering complications if I continued to carry her. We ended that pregnancy at 23 weeks, when we found out about the birth defect. No one will say it, but I will: there are plenty of women who don't feel guilty about having an abortion, or who only feel guilt because society tells us we are supposed to. I'm telling you that I know I didn't do anything wrong. You're free to hate me if you want, but I'll go on living my life without shame or guilt, case closed.


Maddie
Saturday, December 27, 2003 at 01:33:32 (EST)
My point, Margarita was the education difference, as is evident by the misinformation included by Ms. Amy cnm. It is very important, especially when including one's "medical" certifications to make sure the information is completely accurate and not SKEWED in order to further one's own agenda. Her information was blatently incorrect.
Concerned Parent
Friday, December 26, 2003 at 23:17:59 (EST)
I for one used a cnm and loved her - she came very highly recommended above the male "superior" ob/gyns. Yes she had to work under the "supervision" of a ob/gyn however she was able to write prescriptions (and still is). She was excellent and delivers more babies than any of the ob/gyns in this area. I developed pre-eclampsia (sp?) towards the end of my pg and my midwife made me realize the seriousness of the situation without being rude or scarey. She went on vac. when I was about 34 weeks and one of the male obs took care of me for her while she was gone - he had me scared about my pg as he told me with my family history it was a dangerous pg, blah blah I was lucky I hadn't miscarried late in the pg (I hadn't so why did he need to scare me with that info?) anyhow lets just say that although I did go into labor 3 weeks early due to my condition, I was thrilled that my midwife had returned 2 days prior and that she stayed late after delivering something like 12 babies already that day (very busy day for this community) and delivered our daughter for us. She was wonderful and my two sisters who have children were both there as well as my sister in law and they all said they wished they had had her rather than the male obs they had had.
I am not trying to start anything here, nor am I implying that all male ob/gyns are less desirable than a cnm HOWEVER just as I am pointing out the above, I am hoping that I have made a point that cnm are NO LESS than an ob/gyn. MANY babies in the past have been birthed by midwives who would be quite capable of showing obs a thing or two when they were being trained. I think the only real difference is in high risk pgs.
Margarita
Friday, December 26, 2003 at 22:00:22 (EST)
Oh - there should be a "don't" after therefore, as in therefore don't have the same training or higher education background...
Concerned Parent
Friday, December 26, 2003 at 21:00:52 (EST)
Amy, I just noticed the 'cnm' after your name. Certified Nurse Midwife. Which means you don't even have to be a nurse, therefore have the same amount of training as an FNP, RN or MD for that matter. CNM's can't even practice in our state unless under the direct supervision of an MD..and certainly don't have prescription priveleges so I don't know what the heck you are claiming to "prescribe". Shame on you ---
Concerned parent
Friday, December 26, 2003 at 20:58:53 (EST)
Amy, Concerned Parent is NOT grossly misinformed as my Dh is an OB/GYN!!! YOUR agenda to promote this medication is clear and YOUR information is grossly misinformed...if you are even a "midwife".
This is straight from Dh's lips...and I would trust an MD opinion over someone who is a midwife (are you even a RN or FNP? no matter...it is quite clear what your intelligence level is if you are reporting wrong information which is extremely IRRESPONSIBLE!)

Yes, the MAP can delay or prevent ovulation, however, the effects of the medication itself are delayed, and do not exact delivery until 14-18 days after taking it. Therefore allowing PLENTY of time for conception to occur. Those that promote this procedure fail to report that *minor* detail!

Concerned Parent
Friday, December 26, 2003 at 20:54:47 (EST)
I don't think that the morning after pill will promote promiscuity. They said the same thing about the Pill when it first came out. I do think that it should be available only in extreme cases, such as rape, incest, etc. Most women that use it will consider it a form of contraception, and that is not what it is. It is meant to be used in emergencies, not every time someone feels like having sex without a condom. If it's more difficult to obtain, it's much less likely to be considered contraception than if it was sold over-the-counter.
Mandy
email: minkajane@sbcyahoo.com
Friday, December 26, 2003 at 20:43:24 (EST)
There is much misinformation about the "morning after pill." First, the name itself is a misnomer. more appropriately, it is "emergency contraception." Its primary mechanism is to delay or prevent ovulation and it does not disrupt an already established pregnancy, and therefore is NOT an abortion. ("concerned parent" has been grossly misinformed) It actually prevents abortions, because many women who have an unwanted pregnancy will get an abortion. As a health care professional (midwife) who has prescribed emergency contraception many times, I am a strong believer in it being available over the counter. It is safe, effective, and helps prevent unwanted pregnancies in the same mechanism as birth control pills. IF YOU DO NOT BELIEVE IN EMERGENCY CONTRACEPTION, THEN DON'T USE IT!
amy cnm
Friday, December 26, 2003 at 19:31:33 (EST)
Hey people! If you google "morning after pill" on the internet, you can see how it really works! The morning after pill should not be confused with oral contraception. Oral contrapception prevents ovulation. The morning after pill actually does nothing until approximately 2 weeks after it is taken and then forces a massive period on the uterus, shedding it's lining and the ALREADY FERTILIZED EGG WHICH IS A ZYGOTE in to the bloodflow. The bleeding lasts approximately 7-10 days. It is not CONTRACEPTION...IT IS AN OVER-THE-COUNTER ABORTION!
Concerned Parent
Friday, December 26, 2003 at 18:39:09 (EST)
I DO NOT believe that the morning after pill should be sold over the counter! What happened to birth control??? Supporters say this would "prevent millions of unplanned pregnancies" So would not having unprotected sex!!! What kind of a message is this sending to the teenagers supporters want to help? This says you are not responsible for anything you do. Go ahead, have unprotected sex and then come buy a pill to make sure you don't end up pregnant! Please!
Lisa
email: OCMama2MichaelNBenjamin@cox.net
Friday, December 26, 2003 at 15:44:24 (EST)
If any goverment is serious about reducing teen pregnancy then they should make contraception, like the morning after pill more available to teens and improve school sex education programmes. If you don't believe in the morning after pill then that is your personal belief. I believe that anyone who wants the morning after pill should be able to get hold of it without having to go through a process that takes as long as the pill is effective for.
Sarah
email: red_ketral@hotmail.com
Friday, December 26, 2003 at 14:36:54 (EST)
I do no believe that the morning after pill should be sold over the counter ever at all. Where as some women may be responsible, there are scared teenagers who may do anything to end a pregnancy. Ifeel that most women, teens, and/or husbands should go through a doctor as not to make a drastic mistake. I,personally, do not believe in abortion in way. I do not condone it for anyone, but, however, I try not to judge. I do believe that are circumstances in which a pregnancy should possibly end in the event of illness, possibly rape, maybe a pregnancy that could be a severe risk to the mother or baby, i'm sure there many other valid reasons. I think the morning after pill is a good idea, but am afraid that it would terribly misused in the replacement of contraceptives or young scared teens. Let's not forget those who cannot conceive that would do anything to have a child of their own to raise, love and hold. Thank you.
Stacy Lake
email: kaydymae1@hotmail.com
Friday, December 26, 2003 at 14:09:10 (EST)
I ABSOLUTLY do NOT think that the morning after pill should be sold.
IMHO I think that a life should not be taken away no matter how little. If conception accured then that would be murder.
Beth
Beth
Thursday, December 25, 2003 at 23:41:59 (EST)
Kerri - Merry Christmas to you and your family as well. Please, let me know how she is doing?

Merry Merry Christmas or Happy Hannukah to all...hope your next year is happy, prosperous and blessed!
Cherokee
Wednesday, December 24, 2003 at 15:36:11 (EST)
Cherokee-that is wonderful news about your cousin! I am also shocked (and impressed) that they are setting him up in L&D so he can be there for the birth. What a great hospital!
I want to thank you VERY much for the info you shared. I will find out more this week hopefully on what exactly is going on with her CA. I am glad to hear that if you "have" to get a CA, thyroid is the one to get. I know it will give her hope to know that.
Thank you again, and MERRY CHRISTMAS...God bless us all!
Kerri
Wednesday, December 24, 2003 at 14:57:08 (EST)
Julie and Lyne: thank you!

Kerri: I'm so sorry to hear that. It's sad to hear when someone, especially a young person with children, is diagnosed. I always feel such a tug on my heart when I hear that. Please tell your friend from a fellow "survivor" that my prayers are with her and her family!!

First, what stage is her cancer? Secondly, is it follicular? Third, what type of radiation are they going to do? Is it just the I-131 uptake, or are they going to follow up with the radioactive implant? Also, are they completely removing her thyroid as well as the tumor?

Some background from my experience my help her know what to expect. My tumor was the size of a softball that caused a huge bulge in my throat. Yes, it was quite unsightly. It completely encased and surrounded my thyroid. They did a needle aspiration biopsy while I was under anesthesia, and literally from looking at the tissue they extracted could tell it was cancerous, but not how advanced, they did rush it to pathology, who confirmed within an hour that the whole deal needed to come out. They already had me under anesthesia, so they did it right then and there. The surgeon said when he cut into the tumor it was so diseased that it literally fell apart into many pieces and they had to suction out much of my neck cavity. They removed my entire thyroid glad, but were able to leave the parathyroid glands in tact. Because they did, I have to have scans every year or so to make sure they don't come up positive for cancer. I now have a completely artificial metabolism, in that I have to take high doses of synthroid to give my body a metabolism system. (Sorry if TMI for some on you :0( )

They felt that they got all of it, but because I was pg they were worried about delaying treatment but I insisted. Their concern was that because the cancer was follicular (in other words, like thin tendrils you would see on a sweet pea plant) it very easily took root onto veins and other tissue in the body) it has one of the highest recurrence rates. When my son was 4 weeks they performed I-131 uptake, which involved me checking into the hospital for 3 days, (which killed me with a new baby at home)placed in isolation with portable lead walls around my bed, and taking 4 radioactive caplets that also came in lead jars and the oncologist handled with oven mitts and what looked like hot dog tongs. Yes, you can imagine I was thrilled at putting that stuff in my body. Then a guy in a bunny suit would come into my room and monitored me for three days with a Geiger counter (no joke!) to see if I was "safe" to be released. I got to go home after day 3, but couldn't hold my baby,for 4 days, nursing was out of the question, I also couldn't hold my older child or my husband as I would expose them to radiation. Three weeks later, they did a scan and unfortunately saw that they didn't get all of it and I was terrified, they recommended a radioactive implant which they put in under anesthesia, I was in the hospital another 5 days and followed up with one dose of chemo. Yes, after all of the radioactive drugs and chemo exposure, I did lose my hair, had diarrhea and vomitting for about 8 weeks and lost about 27 lbs. (hey - didn't have to exercise off that baby weight LOL-I'm kidding). I do want to say that I had short hair at the time, it all fell out. When it came back in darker and thicker and ever, it looks GREAT which since I have a sense of humor, I joked that wasn't a bad trade. People today comment on what a gorgeous head of hair I have- I wear it long past the middle of my back, it is very thick and people can't believe I was "bald". (Not bragging, just encouragement to those who are worried about losing their hair to chemo/radiation):0)

When my son was a 2 I did have a recurrence with something that came up in a scan, they did another lower-dose I-131 uptake and I have been "clean" ever since. I also didn't suffer the hair loss and vomitting side effects like I did prior. I finally qualify to get life insurance woohoo!

Kerri, this may not be your friend's experience, as my cancer was much more advanced than most when it is discovered. Many oncologists will tell you if you ever have to get a cancer, thyroid is it. That is because it is one of the more slower moving cancers. It feeds on estrogen. When is a woman's estrogen level the highest? When she is pg. Probably why mine moved as fast as it did.

I know this was long Kerri and maybe I should have emailed you? But thanks for sticking with it and again - all my best to your friend. I know she is probably scared to death for herself and her dh and kids...God bless! Saying extra prayers for her!

BTW..my cousin actually came off the ventilator on Sunday and is conscious! With all of those injuries I don't know how he made it. His wife has not had their baby yet and it looks like they are moving him out of ICU tomorrow. The hospital is setting him up in L& D in his bed (he can't move as his pelvis is fractured and rods in both of his legs)so he can be there for the birth. He is one lucky guy!


Cherokee
Wednesday, December 24, 2003 at 13:07:05 (EST)
Merry Christmas Eve everyone!

Cherokee-I have a question for you. Could you give me a little more insight as to your experience with your cancer. My friend was just diagnosed this week with thyroid cancer. They did a biopsy and found it was malignant. :( They want to remove the rest of it and do radiation therapy asap. She is young, 32, with twin 6 year old girls and a 2 year old. I want to give her positive encouragement in anyway I can. Thanks.
Kerri
Wednesday, December 24, 2003 at 10:01:30 (EST)
I know I didn't plan on participating anymore, but by coincidence I ran across a very interesting post on the Yahoo birth control message board yesterday.

A young woman actually posted the question "What will happen to my body if I take the morning after pill too much?" This says it all people!

Julie
Wednesday, December 24, 2003 at 09:04:29 (EST)
No, the morning after pill should not be available over the counter. When a person has a legitimate need to use it, a doctor can prescribe it easily enough. Otherwise, it will only serve as a crutch for people who are too irresponsible to do the right thing while exercising their hormones, such as using a condom.

On a happier note, it's Christmas! Peace on earth, good will toward men (and women). Joyeux Noel, Feliz Navidad, Froeliche Weinachten, and Merry Christmas to all.
And oh yeah--take a cab if yer boozing it up!
Philbert
Tuesday, December 23, 2003 at 23:10:29 (EST)
Yes the morning after pill should be available for over the counter purchase.

kids have sex because they want to. Birth control pills are available to teens here for free from planned parenthood. So is the day after pill. The question I have is, will the teens who know this is available have more unprotected sex? If this pill is available, there will be less abortion, less teen pregnancy, and more money from welfare for people who really need it.

joeysmom
email: colleen_rich@yahoo.com
Tuesday, December 23, 2003 at 18:27:09 (EST)
The only thing I know about how the morning after pill works is what has been said here - so in some ways my jury is still out.
However, I have to differ with those of you who feel that this pill will cause their children to have sex: if your kids are going to have sex they will do it with or without the morning after pill. The pill just makes it easier to not have to face the consequences.
Margarita
Tuesday, December 23, 2003 at 18:01:51 (EST)

No! Absouletly NOT! The
Morning After Pill should
NOT Be SOLD OVER THE COUNTER
Because of the FACT that
it WILL ENCOURAGE UNSAFE
Sex ; ESPACIALLY Among
Teenagers...Think About it
if THIS PILL Were to be Sold
Over the Counter ; How Many
of our Teenagers WOULD HAVE
Sex WITHOUT Us,Parents
Knowing Anything about it?
Then ONE DAY YOUR TEENAGE
DAUGHTER GETS REALLY SICK
AND ENDS UP IN THE ER! IT'S
OUR JOB AS PARENTS TO TALK
TO OUR KIDS ABOUT SEX ; NOT
THE GOVERNMENTS JOB. NO ONE
SHOULD HAVE TO PUT ANY KIND
OF PILL ON THE SHELVES TO
FIX OUR AND OUR KIDS
PROBLEMS... ALSO,WE DON'T
KNOW HOW SAFE IT IS OR
IF THIS PILL WILL CAUSE
DEATH TO THE PERSON WHO
TAKES IT.....AFTER ALL IT
IS A PILL THAT MESSES WITH
A WOMANS REPRODUCTIVE SYSTEM
I WOULDN'T WANT A PILL LIKE
THIS TO GET INTO MY KIDS
HANDS ; WOULD YOU......?

Karen
email: karenrhoads18@peoplepc.com
Tuesday, December 23, 2003 at 16:27:38 (EST)
I don't think the Morning After Pill should be sold over the counter.Do you have any idea how many girls would think that it's ok to have unprotected sex?. I think if you are old enough to have sex you're old enough to accept responsibility for your actions

Jen Lammers
Tuesday, December 23, 2003 at 15:57:27 (EST)
That is so wonderful to hear! I'm so happy that you're both okay!
Julie
Tuesday, December 23, 2003 at 12:37:31 (EST)
Cherokee.. that is a beautiful story!! Im so happy for the outcome, both for you and your son :) Happy Holidays.
Lyne
Tuesday, December 23, 2003 at 11:52:36 (EST)
Julie-no I don't mind you asking. I never pass on an opportunity to brag about my kids! LOL:0)the pg was relatively uneventful after the surgery, which was a 4 week healing process because they sliced my neck open, but I was only in labor 2.5 hours and was able to do it natural, with no drugs (it was really short)and he weighed 8lbs 13oz. Dylan turned 12 this past October, and makes straight B's in school, except for science where he always receives A's. We think he is capable of A's in everything, but he is a chatterbox and that is sometimes his priority (don't know *where* he gets that :)). He also just received his blackbelt in Tai Kwondo after classes 2 days per week for the last 2 years, and is becoming quite the golfer with my ex-husband. I have been in remission since Dylan was 6 months old. I had one small recurrence two years later, but it resolved. My oncologist thinks that was great since the cancer was pretty advanced (stage 2 out of 4)when it was discovered and my condition when they discovered it. I credit my faith in God, who led me to the right doctor, who was able to heal me AND spare the life of my baby.
Cherokee
Tuesday, December 23, 2003 at 11:20:47 (EST)
Cherokee
Like I wrote earlier,I don't plan on debating the issue, but I felt I should at least personally respond to your post. I can't even imagine having to go through what you did. Gosh, I don't know what else to say, except that I'm so sorry that you had to experience that. How are you and the child now? If you don't mind me asking. :)

Julie
Tuesday, December 23, 2003 at 10:40:47 (EST)
I realize that I'm a little late coming on the board (and new to all this internet stuff) but I read something that I needed to comment on. The hypotheticals that imply that in those cases abortion could be justfied. I just read a story in Focus on the Family about a women, pregnant with quads was encouraged to reduce her pregnancy to 2. She refused and all 4 survived. the clencher is - the 2 that the doctor would have aborted were the 2 with the LEAST health problems! I've also heard many stories about children who doctors were certain to be born with serious problems who were born normal. And I've heard stories of rape victims who's child turns out to have a really positive impact on their community. I know personally a little girl who's bio mother was a prostitute who chose to put her baby up for adoption. That little girl just sang the most beautiful song at our Christmas pageant at church thanks to her adoptive parents and thanks to her bio mom for choosing to give birth! God does everything for a reason! I even know of a baby who was born with Down's syndrome who wasn't supposed to live past 18 and is now 40years old! She is a blessing and joy to all who know her! What if her mom had aborted her? There is lots to think about in this debate. I think it is important to realize that God loves each of us no matter how small or how many bad things we may have done. I hope i have not offended anyone -amanda g.
amanda g.
email: ger@ligtel.com
Monday, December 22, 2003 at 23:27:54 (EST)
Hi, Kerri. Glad to know those books helped. I know those two really helped me to clarify the kind of education I wanted for Madelyn. It's never too early to think about that!

I just finished another book, can't think of the author, but the title is "How To Raise A Brighter Child." Jane or Joan somebody, I think. Anyway, it was also very informative, and available at my local library. It gives a lot of pointers on how to encourage creativity, and a love for learning in children, especially toddlers. Good reading.

Kerri, you're from the Chicago area? I am in Alabama, but I was in Chicago this past July for a week. It was the first time I've been there, and I have to say, I was shocked at how PRETTY and CLEAN the city is, even downtown--lots of trees and parks. Not at all what I expected of a large, urban area. It was really a lovely place, and I'd love to return there for another visit. I'd love to check out the exhibit you mentioned.

I also wanted to wish everyone a very merry Christmas, and offers prayers for the year to come. I love this time of year--to know that Jesus was born to die for me (and YOU) is so unbelievably wondrous. To know that He left the splendor of Heaven, the company of God the Father, to come live as a man, and die covered with MY sin is beyond understanding. I pray you know this Jesus, and if you don't, I pray you meet Him soon!

Merry Christmas, everyone.
Vanessa
Monday, December 22, 2003 at 20:00:39 (EST)
I find it interesting how all the women here who have had an abortion, have felt some sort of guilt or remorse (whether it be immediate or years later). Why would a person experience these emotons if it was something that was "ok"?
I am having a change of heart on this issue. Today my family went to the Museum of Science and Industry in Chicago where they had a prenatal exhibit. They showed aborted/demised fetuses throughout the growth span of 6 days-37 weeks. They were preserved in jars and even with the tiniest 5 week old fetus, my 2 year old daughter pointed to it and said "little baby". So, if it is not a "life" yet, how could it look so human-like to where a 25 month old could tell what it was. It really opened my eyes.
Kerri
Monday, December 22, 2003 at 18:23:57 (EST)
VANESSA-I am glad to see you back! I bought both those books you recommended and I must say, the one about schools is definitely an eye opener! If I do not homeschool my 2 year old, I will most definitely send her to Catholic school. Thank you for showing me "the light" on the agenda of those in charge...I pray that within 3 years they pass the school voucher bill.
Kerri
Monday, December 22, 2003 at 17:45:52 (EST)
I just wanted to ad that when I said "accountable", I don't believe they it is to humans and we have no right to judge these women. Just to clarify.
Cherokee
Monday, December 22, 2003 at 16:23:07 (EST)
Well Julie, I simply put my baby's life in front of mine. That's all I can say. And, I trusted the Lord. I felt that this was merely a trial in front of my husband and I, and that if I did the right thing, it would be ok and it was. Also, you can sure as heck bet that I got a second opinion. I went to three other doctors (total of 4). 3 told me to abort and one told me I would probably be fine and so would my child. He was the doctor who ended up delivering my son and all the others! The three who told me to abort made it very clear (while I was WAY past my first trimester)that it was much easier for "treatment" if I had the "pregnancy out of the way" and that is a quote. They didn't even regard my baby as a life, and I was already feeling him kick! The last doctor said it would be more phsyically traumatic, emotionally devastating and not conducive to positive cancer therapy. By the way, the procedure they were going to use involved injecting saline fluid into my amniotic sac, and it would basically chermically burn the baby until he was dead. Then they would give me a low-level dose of pitocin via IV, induce labor where I would deliver my son (dead). And even if you kill a baby at 5 weeks, when most women learn they are pg...there is still a beating heart. How can one argue it is not a life, (not saying you are dear)my guess is though whomever argues it isn't a life, are merely those who can't or WON'T be responsible for it (i know the grammar here is all messed up :0)) - it is easier to destroy it if you don't feel it is a life right? It's a justification process.

I'm very thankful I got a second opinion (and third and fourth) to be sure I knew ALL the facts before I destroyed my baby.

And to those on the board who have made this decision, I am in no way attacking you for the decision you made...I believe most women are SORRY they made the decision and feel alot of regret and while they are to be held accountable, they deserve compassion and respect, just like any other hurting soul out there.
Cherokee
Monday, December 22, 2003 at 16:20:55 (EST)
The thing about debating abortion is that the arguments and debates always seem endless to me. I honestly don't think any issue divides this country more than the issue of abortion. If I haven't made sense during these posts, it's because I am confused about how I really feel about the issue. My heart says one thing, while my head says another. The one thing that I do know, is that we can argue this topic until we're all old and senile and we will never, ever agree. It is for this reason that I think I'm going to withdraw and wait for the next topic to be chosen. I can guarentee you that the same arguments will be made over and over and over again on this board. All of you regulars will probably grow tired and bored of the subject, because no resolution can ever be reached. In regards to abortion, there is simply not an answer that pleases everyone.
Julie
Monday, December 22, 2003 at 15:02:07 (EST)
Cant agree more. Merry Christmas & Happy New Year to everyone! God bless
Lyne
Monday, December 22, 2003 at 14:47:28 (EST)
how rude, the computer cut me off and i wasn't finished! lol!

"see" you all in the new year!

LH< drop me a line!!!
j-mo
Monday, December 22, 2003 at 14:40:35 (EST)
hi all,
just wanted to wish everyone here a very merry christmas from my island in the sun. have a blessed, safe holiday and i'll
j-mo
USAMonday, December 22, 2003 at 14:39:47 (EST)
Having a child is a responsibility and so is creating a child. The morning after pill just makes it easy for people who don't want to be responsible. It should be evaluated case by case with other birth control options offered.
Gail Moore
email: gmooresamlou@charter.net
Monday, December 22, 2003 at 11:47:18 (EST)
While I don't agree with abortion. I can not say that I would not EVER have one. I know that baby are gifts from GOD, but it would be very hard for me to carry a child of a man that raped me. Being pregnant now, I do everything thats in the best interest of my child. How could one not be angry, if you were violated. How could you say that in the back of your mind there would not be some sort of hatred for what has happened to you. Im not saying that its common, for women to become pregnant after rape. But I feel its possible. What date rape, how many young ladies and women don't report it. So again I have to say, its not something that I would chose, for myself but you never really know the circumstances. And for some women carring a child to term may not be the best option for them, but it is THAT WOMAN who would have to deal with the consequences...
This moring after pill, and the abortion in the 2nd and 3rd trimester really interst me, am I'm going to do some research on both the matters.
PJB- thanks for you answer on Friday,
LISTENING to "our" young women and EDUCATING them are the answers..... the should feel that they have someone they can turn to..
raye
Monday, December 22, 2003 at 11:16:52 (EST)
Leah
Despite the fact that I'm not too fond of you right now, I can't help but point out that you are right about the effects the "morning after pill" has on the body. What these pills do is reverse a completely natural process on the body. The name "morning after pill" implies that it is a quick, easy solution to the "problem." I have also heard that this pill causes severe cramping along with the bleeding. If the morning after pill is offered OTC, who will give medical advice to these women during the few weeks after talking it? What if complications arise? It seems to me that a medication this strong should be given only with a doctor's care. Not only do you have the physical issues, but what about pschyological counseling for these women? They are having an abortion and are making a choice that may affect them emotionally for the rest of their lives. You also have to think about women who might begin to abuse this drug. Instead of using regular birth control to prevent pregnancy, they will use the "morning after pill" in place of regular birth control. If anything is offered OTC, it should be birth control pills.
Julie
Monday, December 22, 2003 at 10:09:26 (EST)
Leah
Why don't you try debating the topic with me instead of personally insulting me?

Julie
Monday, December 22, 2003 at 09:51:42 (EST)
Cherokee
The cancer example I gave was taken from a woman that I knew of that was in that exact situation. She chose to have an abortion. While it's certainly possible that abortion isn't generally recommended, you have to keep in mind that every doctor is different. While yours didn't suggest abortion as an option, hers did.
Julie
Julie
Monday, December 22, 2003 at 09:45:27 (EST)
ABORTION is wrong no matter how much you sugar coat it. It is such a terrible thing to think that you can 'get rid of an inconveinence' just by taking a pill. Have some backbone, and realize you are killing a human life. Do you want someone to give you a pill?
peace
Monday, December 22, 2003 at 07:26:46 (EST)
Hi, all. I've been MIA for a while--too much going on to allow for reading and posting!

Anyway, I do feel the need to chime in on this topic, as much to gain info as to give my opinion. I'm not exactly sure how the MA pill works--I know it keeps the embryo, or zygote, from implanting. Is this a drug you take if you *think* you might have conceived within the last 24 hrs? Surely you don't have to wait until you know you're pregnant? Just need the 411.

As for the overall topic of abortion, I have to say I'm 110% against it. I know it's PC to bring up all of the far out reasons one might morally justify an abortion, like pregnancies resulting from incest. Let me just clarify--these cases account for a fraction of ONE PERCENT of pregnancies, not the truckloads that some might want us to think exist. As part of my graduate studies in social work, I did an in-depth topical overview of adolescent pregnancy in my county. I reviewed statistics for girls from ages 10 to 18. I couldn't find any for younger children, but I find it hard to believe that many girls younger than ten are physically able to conceive. I know that the study I did related only to my county, but I did find that the rate of adolescent pregnancy was very close to that of my entire state. I must qualify all of this by saying that it's very hard to get accurate stats on pregnancy that results from incest, because it is reported either very rarely or inaccurately.

I would like to share a personal experience that has helped me to define my views on abortion. Because I am a Christian, I do believe it is morally wrong to purposefully end a pregnancy. The Bible says that children are a gift from God--not just those that are planned or wanted. All of them. I fully believe that. Anyway, when I was a freshman in college, my sister became pregnant. She was about 23 at the time. She was not married to the father, and had no intentions of getting married to him. She already had a son whome she had given birth to, also out of wedlock, at the age of eighteen. She came to me asking me to take her to a clinic to have an abortion, in a city about an hour away. I prayed harder than I've ever prayed. I love my sister dearly, but I couldn't abandon my beliefs simply because she is my sister. I thought, how will she support another baby? What if she can't find someone else to take her? What if our parents find out? But, I also thought, how can I just give up on my beliefs and participate in something that I believe is so very wrong? I just knew that I had a decision to make, and it wasn't up to me to worry about all of the "what ifs." In the end, I tearfully told my sister that I loved her more than I could say, but that I could not participate because of my beliefs on the issue. I truly believed that the child she carried was a living human life, with a purpose and a destiny. I didn't take her. She found someone else to take her and had the abortion. Thankfully, she wasn't mad at me or vengeful. She didn't feel that I'd let her down, and she seemed to respect my views. We never mentioned it again. However, about three years later, she came to me late one night to talk. She was crying. She said that she was haunted by what she'd done. As she sat there, crying her eyes out, she brokenly asked me if I thought the baby had felt the pain of the abortion. I had no answer for her. I just didn't know what to say. Images of this tiny human being dissolved by a saline solution, or torn limb from limb paralyzed my thoughts. I didn't want to say something that would just hurt her even more.

That was ten years ago. Several times, my sister has told me that she wonders about that baby. She has since become a Christian and knows that she will see that baby in Heaven.

I know some will judge me for what they see as letting my sister down at a time she needed me. But in my mind, my beliefs aren't conditional. It doesn't matter who is involved. I have a daughter who is almost three. If, someday, she were in this position, I would make the same choice, no matter what the circumstance. If she were very young, I would help her in the adoption process. If she were of an age and maturity that I believed she could be a good parent, I would help her in whatever way I could toward that end.

Circumstances change, but beliefs don't. I felt that abortion was wrong in my sister's case, and if I were in the same situation, I'd make the same choice.
Vanessa
Sunday, December 21, 2003 at 16:42:07 (EST)
Leah - I guess I am confused because I didn't read Julie's comments to be "nitpicking" nor did I think she came across as a teenager.
Anyhow, that aside, welcome to the board. I haven't seen you here before, so nice to "e-meet" you.
I have a 2 yr old daughter as well, and have the same hopes for our relationship.

Hey here's an interesting view on how a parent's support or lack of, affects a teen's pg crisis: a girl at my church who is now, oh 20 maybe? has a 6 yr old. I have known her since her son was 2 and watched how the family interacts. When I first started at our church I was confused about who J. belonged to - I assumed her parents and she was just a really helpful daughter. Also, the family is really physically affectionate, with the kids sitting close to mom and dad, arms around one another, etc. Anyhow, J. always has known who his mom is however the whole family (moms the oldest) all live in the same home and have all contributed to raising him while mom completed H.S. then went to a masters commission out of town for a year. She is now living back at home, raising her son and going to college. This is an extra burden to the grandparents, it's true. BUT here is a girl who was able to finish school and go to college because of her familial support. In the long run there will be less need of grandparent's financial and emotional help because mom was able to be a kid still and she was able to get an education.
On the other hand, there is another teenage girl at our church who has a one yr old. Grandmom quite coming to church when the teen mom announced she was pg because she was embarrassed and has been very standoffish with the mom and baby since. The young mother stopped coming to church regularly as well, although I did have a chance to see her recently. Dad took off to Ca and mom is staying home at her own apt and lives off welfare (no offense meant, just the facts). What will happen to her? Big difference in the two scenarios.
Margarita
Sunday, December 21, 2003 at 00:30:02 (EST)
Margarita, I wasn't debating anything with Julie. I was stating that her silly little nitpicking comments and her "case scenarios" were ridiculous. That is all. She seems to like an arguement, not a debate.
Leah
Saturday, December 20, 2003 at 18:33:54 (EST)
Tabitha, you have some inaccurate information regarding the morning after pill.
First of all, there is more than one pill to take. Secondly, the only thing the morning after pill does is cause a major bleeding cycle like a period within 2 weeks from consumption. This prevents the ALREADY FERTILIZED EGG from implanting and developing in the lining of the uterus. There is no drug out there that "prevents sperm from fully penetrating the egg" as you stated. Please, get your facts straight before posting stuff like this, some teen may be on here right now and get wrong information, and possibly not make the right (or wrong) decision for themselves. Maybe someone who doesn't want to "abort". It is a form of abortion, medically speaking, although I will admit, much less traumatic on a woman's body than a D&C. The only oral contraception that prevents pregnancy "before" fertilization is the PILL, which prevents ovulation altogether. Check it out...just google "morning after pill". I have issues with this pill because I think to myself..."what other ways can we, as a society, come up with to remove accountability for our behaviors". The parent side of me says, I hope my daughter (now 2) and I relate well enough that she will be open with me, but realistically, I know I will want to kick her butt (figure of speach, nobody freak out please)if she is so irresponsible for having intercourse without protection. I would be really disappointed. I also don't like the fact that my minor child can make moral (technically, it is aan abortion!) decisions without my parental guidance and other adults out there are facilitating it - and before all the liberals out there yell at me in all caps how I am facist and a control freak and my kid will always hide things from me...how about as a parent making a commitment to be so involved in their kids' life, therefore making them ACCOUNTABLE for their behavior?? I'm not saying i wouldn't allow her to have the pill, if after checking her cycle days to see if she was even fertile at that time, I would just want to be involved, some women have HORRIBLE bleeding with this pill (that part isn't advertised people) and I would want to know, so I could if nothing else, take care of her! I know some kids will just do it anyway, but still.

I understand the argument with rape etc, but I have to say after 8 years volunteering as a crisis counselor, do you know how many women become pg as a result of rape? It makes for good stories on TV and in books, but it really doesn't happen too much people. it should only be available through a doctor. Thanks for "listening" to my opinion.
Leah
Saturday, December 20, 2003 at 18:29:25 (EST)
Leah ~ ?? What are you debating?

Julie ~ just ignore her.
Margarita
Saturday, December 20, 2003 at 18:11:44 (EST)
Julie, nothing you say makes any sense. Your observations aren't worthy of a debate. Isn't there a teen board somewhere you can take your ridiculous debater-wannabe's comments to?
Leah
Saturday, December 20, 2003 at 13:10:16 (EST)
I do not think that a morning after pill should be readily available because it's another way of promoting promiscuity (sp?)..like we really need more of that in the world! It's an easy way out...a get out of jail free card...HOWEVER...there may be some instances where it could be beneficial, like in a rape case or a case where safe sex was practiced and failed (broken condom), and if that's the case, why not go to your doc to get it?
SH
Friday, December 19, 2003 at 23:44:49 (EST)
hi everyone! TGIF!

my initial thought when reading this question was NO WAY! first of all, i'm not even sure i agree with the "morning after" pill. i don't think i know enough about it to really say whether or not it's something i think is ok.

however, i have no problem with birth control pills, and so perhaps this morning after pill is no big deal? i dunno, i'm interested to read your opinions!

take care everyone

angela, haven't "talked" to you in a while, little miss dayton will be celebrating her first christmas, yeah?

and RILEY, congrats on your bun in the oven!

LH, miss ya dearly, but i'm busy as anything too! will "chat" soon!
j-mo
Friday, December 19, 2003 at 23:41:24 (EST)
Julie - got to take partiality with one of your "cases" about abortion. I found out I had STAGE 2 thyroid cancer when I was 5 months pg with my son - I don't know what docs you are researching, but they don't encourage women with cancer to abort - it is EQUALLY (Kerri you're the professional nurse here)traumatic to the body. They removed the cancerous parts, I complete my pg (gave birth to an 8lb, 13 oz healthy boy who is now 12 years old and the star of his science club)then did chemo and radiation 4 weeks post delivery. I have been in remission, save one small recurrence for basically 11 years. Having worked in the medical community for quite some time - I can tell you this isn't even a REALISTIC scenario, so please think about that before you use it as an example. I have cared for women with Breast cancer who have maintained their pgs and given birth to wonderful happy kids. Those are just my thoughts along with my medical professional opinion. You seem like a smart lady so I hope we will not repeat the other day yes?

All of these scenarios are not the norm for abortion or the morning after pill, they are more highly used for "accidents" and promiscuous behavior where there has been a slip up. As stated in someone else's posts, in fact very rare. Perhaps that is why there is the reservation about the over-the-counter thing, and that is why maybe docs should be involved in the process.
Cherokee
Friday, December 19, 2003 at 18:06:09 (EST)
Raye,

To answer your question, yes there are other methods that are equally horrifing but because of techincalities would not voilate the PBA ban. PBA is very narrowly defined. I have read about other procedures and I cant even bring myself to describe it here. This PBA ban is a very tiny step in the right direction. They need to ban based on gestation, not procedure. abortionists will always find another way if one or another procedure gets banned. There is still a very long way to go.



PJB
Friday, December 19, 2003 at 17:42:50 (EST)
Im not trying to nit pick with you Julie. I was just stating something, thats all.
Lyne
Friday, December 19, 2003 at 15:08:14 (EST)
I read an article about partial abortion. And it was very disturbing!! Is that the only procedure?? I can not read anything futher on this issue, it really bothers me, so if anyone knows please let me know if this is the only procedure that they are using for abortions in the 2nd and 3rd trimester?
raye
Friday, December 19, 2003 at 14:24:27 (EST)
I did a little research and found this in a news article.

THE PRESIDENT: Thank you very much. Good afternoon. I'm pleased that all of you have joined us as the Partial Birth Abortion Ban Act of 2003 becomes the law of the land.

If it is illegal to have a partial birth abortion, what is the point of debating it now? It is time to move on and discuss other forms of abortion.
Julie
Friday, December 19, 2003 at 14:10:00 (EST)
Lyne
While I appreciate you nit-picking me about what we are discussing and aren't, I would like to point out that the topic is supposed to be about the morning after pill anyway. Someone else also brought up a paternity case, so don't just complain about me. :P

Julie
Friday, December 19, 2003 at 13:46:22 (EST)
Julie.. abortion might be the best in these cases, HOWEVER, we are talking about later term abortion here. Im quite sure an 11 yr old isnt going to carry a baby til her 7th month and then have an abortion.
Lyne
Friday, December 19, 2003 at 13:07:25 (EST)
The thing about abortion is that every person's situation is so unique. I'll give a few hypathetical examples.

Case 1: A 11 year old is raped by her father and gets pregnant. Is it okay for her to choose abortion?

Case 2: A woman finds out that she has cancer after she's gotten pregnant. If she has chemotherapy, the child may have severe birth defects. If she has no treatment, both her and her baby are likely to die. Is it okay for her to have an abortion?

Case 3: A woman has used fertility drugs to get pregnant. She is carrying several babies and the doctor urges her to reduce the number of fetuses that she is carrying for the safety of the other fetuses? Is it okay to abort those fetuses?

My point is this, no one has any right, especially the government to make choices for these people involved. Abortion may be in the best interests of these cases.
Julie
Friday, December 19, 2003 at 13:03:54 (EST)
Tabitha
Partial abortion is illegal now. Maybe I'm mistaken, but hasn't the fight been won?
Julie
Friday, December 19, 2003 at 12:51:40 (EST)
Kerri
I love the idea of making birth control pills over the counter! That is brillant! I think half the reason people don't use birth control is because of the expense of seeing a doctor. The question is, however, what would the age at which you are allowed to purchase the pills? should it be restricted like tobacco and alcohol?
Julie
Friday, December 19, 2003 at 12:47:56 (EST)
There'll probably be a few posts here by me in small bites, just because there's so to respond to.

Someone wrote that they don't think a person should have an abortion even in the case of rape. I completely disagree. First of all the female did not decide to have sex! She is in no way responsible for the fact that she has become pregnant! She did not choose to have her life completely changed. Some bastard did that for her!
Julie
Friday, December 19, 2003 at 12:40:56 (EST)
Maybe she did try - maybe they wouldn't talk with her. We have seen in the past how high profile figures father kids and then deny them, only to find out after a court ordered dna test, that a child really is there. Bill Cosby, Jesse Jackson are more recent ones I think of. Maybe her public announcement was a last resort. I don't think his wife even knew this about his past since it happened before he married her and it was so hush-hush. I don't think any of us could understand her position.
Just a bystander
Friday, December 19, 2003 at 12:36:16 (EST)
In regards to the paternity story...

She most certainly has a right to know who her father is, but why did she need to voice this publically? It was certainly possible to resolve the issue privately with the family.
Julie
Friday, December 19, 2003 at 12:32:09 (EST)
Tabitha- to answer your question. If I couldn't care for the baby, I would give them up for adoption. There are so many deserving families out there.

The way I see it if you have sex, even witha condom, you should never assume that you can't get pregnant. Nothing but abstaining is 100%. I have sex knowing that anything is possible. Of course I am in a marriage and can care for another child. (I am currently due in May :))
As for being raped, that is a harder desision. I would hope that would have the strength to realize that it isn't the child's fault and continue with the pregnancy and give it up for adoption.
Hope that answers your question.

As far as the posted question..... I don't think thatit is a good idea to make it sooo easy to get. People will start to abuse it and think that it is a quick fix. We should be smarter with our bodies. And the pill should be sought after with a doctors premmision only.
Riley's Mom
Friday, December 19, 2003 at 11:38:44 (EST)
Margarita.. I didnt take your post as argumentative at all. Im so sorry that you felt there was no other alternative than abortion for you. I can tell that you are very sincere when you talk about it. No offense taken here at all. Have a great Holiday with your family :)
Lyne
Friday, December 19, 2003 at 08:19:14 (EST)
ABOUT TIME THIS FORUM HAD A DECENT TOPIC!!!!!!!!!!
vertie
Friday, December 19, 2003 at 07:08:50 (EST)
I just posted but I wanted to get some views on what you all would do if the condom broke, or you were raped. Would you get the morning after pill or would you have the baby even though you couldn't care for another. I am just talking about the pill not abortion.
Just curious.
Ty
Tabitha
email: hotjazzyjava@hotmail.com
Friday, December 19, 2003 at 05:31:31 (EST)
I understand each side to the coin, however, I have had to take the morning after pill. I am married and have a beautiful four yearold. The condom broke and it was my best option, FOR ME. We are in America and I hate to say it but teenagers can call their Dr right now and just request it over the phone and it will be at the pharmacy and parents are not notified.
I see no differnce. When I was 16, friends of mine would take a months worth of B.C. to try and prevent a pregnancy. It is the same. Some runaway, some commit suicide, others drop out of school and some cope. Either way they will take control of their body regaurdless of what you or I think. It is not abortion it rids the body of the egg before the sperm fully penetrates the egg. If God meant for that egg to fertilize than it will do so with or without the pill. That is why no BC, even the morning after pill is a 100% effective.
I would like to see all the attention and focus on stopping partial abortion than on this garbage, if every one feels so strongly on this issue, please help me and every innocent child and fight partial abortion. If you are not familier w/it please research it,most of you would be horrified to find out that they induce labor and kill the child half way out in the 3rd trimester!!!!! Lets focus on the really important issues.
Tabitha
email: hotjazzyjava@hotmail.com
Friday, December 19, 2003 at 05:17:55 (EST)
Yes, I do believe the "morning after" pill should be made over the counter. I do think however it needs to be behind the pharmacist's desk so it is not easily accessible. And as I mentioned yesterday, we also need to add the birth control pill next to it.
While I am pro-life, I do believe in contraception. Whether it be the pill, condoms, or IUD/diaphragm. If a person is not ready to become pregnant and knows this, all options should be made readily available to them (with in reason...IUD needs a doctor to insert it). When I was in Mexico last year, I was able to purchase my exact birth control pills for 75% LESS than I pay here in the states, and I didn't need an RX for it. It was no problem obtaining them nor was it a big deal. Women here should have that same option.
In a time where sex is all over the media young adults are being brainwashed into thinking "everyone is doing it and I must too", at least give them some options to control unwanted pregnancy's...so abortion doesn't even become an issue. How many young girls have been told by their boyfriend's that "condoms aren't needed" or convinced the naive girl that she "won't become pregnant by doing it once". Sell the birth control pill and maybe the "morning after pill" won't be needed...
Kerri
Friday, December 19, 2003 at 00:15:53 (EST)
PBJ, Cherokee - thank you both for your kind words. I just realized that all of my posts sounded sort of - I don't know what I am trying to say - argumentative, and that is certainly not what I meant, especially the first one directed to Lyne and PBJ. It is hard for me to say what I am saying if you can't see my face or hear my voice - so easy to misunderstand. I don't think I am particularly brave to share my story with "strangers" here. I have shared it with my step sister in law when she was considering abortion as well as others who I didn't know personally and either were or knew someone who was considering it. Sharing it here is relatively safe, however I hope it does give someone cause to think twice if abortion is in their horizon. God can use my mess as much as he wants to if it will help others. Where I am still a coward is telling my parents or siblings... I tell myself now it serves nobody's purpose in telling them but my own. My dad has beginning stage dementia and wouldn't follow, my mom and sisters would be very hurt that I didn't turn to them (they are considerably older than I). I would feel better after but it would cause them pain. I don't know if I need to tell them or not. Very confusing.

I think anyone here who would attack someone such as myself or others who have shared a painful story from the past in an attempt to show a different perspective or help someone is not very compassionate. No one has done that here, I'm just saying that if someone were to attack me, I wouldn't really care because it would speak volumes about them ;-)

Thanks again for your support ladies.
Margarita
Thursday, December 18, 2003 at 20:46:08 (EST)
Margarita - {{HUGS}} thanks for sharing that - I'm sure it is scary opening up about something so personal on a board like this, you never know what fire you'll come under and I for one think it was very brave.

GOD forgives you and YOU forgive you, and that is all that matters. You have Salvation and those of us who believe know what that means right? Not that my opinion means anything, but - I have a lot of respect for someone who opens up a painful wound to share an experience she wants to spare others...God Bless!! :0)

On a side note, I mentioned when I was in high school (Catholic all-girl prep school)we had a class called Moral Choices. It was part of the Right to Life thing. We had to go on these "demonstrations" - which is a very loosely used term...what it was really was modern day stone-throwing. We went to abortion clinics or women's center where abortions were performed and picketed. Many of the girls (and nuns) were yelling at the girls that were going in and coming out of the clinic. OMG I'm ready to cry right now when I remember it. Anyway, I will never forget the look on a girl's face who looked to be about 16 or 17, it was void of all expression except tears on her cheeks while she just stared at us this one woman ran up to about 3 feet away from her screamed baby killer. She was all by herself going to a taxi. I think now as a grown up that probably meant she had just dealt with the whole ordeal alone. The girl literally just fell down and some people from the clinic came out to get her. I SO wish I could take back the ignorant way we acted that day. I never went again, I chose some other act of Christian community service (LOL that was what it was called - you had to fulfill so many hours per semester for your grade). Shameful. I want to clarify that I am against abortion, but I do not condone that kind of stone-throwing either.

If I could do that over, with the insight I have now (*IF*)I would have helped that poor girl. Except for that woman on the board yesterday, I don't think there are too many women who brag about their abortions, most really regret it.
Cherokee
Thursday, December 18, 2003 at 20:25:55 (EST)
PBJ ~ we must have been posting at the same time ;-) because I didn't see yours before I posted mine.

It is a painful thing for me - I have forgiven myself but not forgotten. I agree with you that no innocent life should be lost and I suppose it doesn't make alot of sense to some that I also support a woman's right to choose. I guess I feel like I can't influence a person's decision to make/fail to make moral choices all the time, but at least this way the women who choose to have an abortion can have a safe one.
My only real disagreement with what you had said was that all those in the pro-abortion movement are morally bankrupt, irresponsible, etc. That is probably true for some. I d know that I am not pro-abortion but I am pro-choice; to some people that is one and the same. I don't feel that I am morally bankrupt or irresponsible. I made a short-sighted, selfish choice when I was 17 and you are right - it is all about choices. That choice has affected my entire life since. And yes, hopefully by sharing my story it will help prevent some-one(s) from choosing abortion for themesleves.
I just want to add: I am basically a happy, well adjusted person. From the sounds of these posts it may sound like I am in serious depression or am unable to enjoy the blessings that I have. That is not the case: God has blessed me in many ways and I am thankful for those things. There was a period of about 3 or 4 years that this was not the case and I was really a mess. It wasn't until I realized that id God could forgive me then I needed to forgive myself that I really started to heal from this experience. I don't think it will ever be gone from my life though, and that is just part of who I am now.
Margarita
Thursday, December 18, 2003 at 17:22:44 (EST)
Margarita,

I just now read your follow up post. I have tears in my eyes! The Lord forgives us for EVERYTHING as long as we ask. You are right, it is only up to God to make judgement, not any of us here on this planet. You are doing right by sharing your story to help others in the same situation. Remember, Roe herself (Roe v Wade) is now against abortion. It is never too late. Sending cyber hugs your way, thank you for your insight. {{}}

PJB
Thursday, December 18, 2003 at 17:15:47 (EST)
Margarita,

your story pains me; for the death of your baby, for the fear that I KNOW you felt, and for the sadness that you have expressed about this before. I know too that there are more "reasonable" excuses that face women and why they THINK that abortion is the right choice. All of those reasons, even rape, is NO justification for murdering a baby. Life is hard, harder for some than it is for others. Some people are stricken with disease and disability. Some have tragic accidents or losses of loved ones. Why do these things happen to one human but not the other? Who knows? But God has plan for each one of us. Even if it is not the plan we choose, it is HIS plan. So while a woman may have fear of her family or lack of money why should the baby die? It is all about choices though. One woman chose to have sex as a child, another continued to have sex without a support system or means for money. No one though just shows up pregnant. I know that when i was teen i thought i would rather be dead than to ever have to tell my parents that i was pg. they spent too much time telling me how much trouble i would be in thinking it would steer me away from sex. now we all know that is not true! As you said in hindsight you know your parents would have helped you and most would. kids are scared of losing their parents approval. It is so important that while we teach them the rights and wrongs that we reinforce to them that we will love them no matter what kind of mess they find themselves in. When all is said and done the choice should never be death for the innocent. I do appreciate you margarita for sharing your story and hopefully it will help someone out there choose life.

PJB
Thursday, December 18, 2003 at 17:06:47 (EST)
Something was bugging me about my last post and I wanted to clarify it: when I said that I would never make another woman feel guilty about her choice I didn't mean that I support her choice or tell her it's wonderful or anything like that - but I don't tell her she is a murdered and evil, etc. I figure that judgements is God's to make. All I do is offer up my personal experience. What I thought would be a simple solution turned out to be anything but when I realized that magnitude of what I had done. Almost daily, and now especially since I have a living child, I think of what my "oldest" would be like now. Would he/she look like me or dh. When I get to judgement day I hope I will have the Lord's forgiveness, but how do I explain to the child I chose to abort?
I believe our messes are our messages. By sharing my mess, I know of at least one woman who decided NOT to abort after learning what she may go through. I know that abortion shouldn't be about how it affects us as a woman, becuase we are not the ones losing our life, but the fact that I threw away a life is what causes me to feel the way I do. Does that make sense?
If abortion had not been legal when I was 17, I would have found some means to abort or miscarriage... before I even knew for sure I was pregnant I was trying to hurt myself to cause a miscarriage. I don't know what extremes I would have went through to keep from having to tell people what I had done, or rather have them assume what I had done as my now dh and I did try to be responsible.

Back to an earlier post on this topic, an IUD works exactly the same as the morning after pill, it keeps the fertilized egg from implanting. My gf ahs one, she also has 3 kids from prior to her IUD. She tells me almost every month about her "miscarriages" she thinks she is having. I try to tenderly tell her I don't agree with her IUD and why. On the other hand, she has 3 kids already and she loves them but would rather they were with a babysitter most of the time so she could enjoy going out, etc. I don't know which is worse because I don't think she will start spending more time at home. In any event, she did just complete her college degree so at least she shouldn't be on welfare much longer (also working but getting free child care and foodstamps).
Margarita
Thursday, December 18, 2003 at 17:06:15 (EST)
Thank YOU Raye.

I do believe in time progress can be made to steer the country in the right direction. It is all about education. While I doubt there will ever be a 100% prohibition on abortion, which i personally hope for, any progress IS progress. Like you, I, and I think most people would at least support limitations on abortions.

Thanks Raye for the conversation.

PJB
Thursday, December 18, 2003 at 16:24:44 (EST)
PJB, Lyne ~ I don't think that all pro-abortion people are morally bankrupt and I don't think that the scenario that has been shown here is the only reason for people choosing to have abortion. I am personally against abortion however I do support a woman's right to choose and I do believe that if it were illegal we would just be back in the same situation where woman still tried to find ways that were unsafe to have them.
Again, when I was 17 I had an abortion and the biggest proponent was that I was scared to death to tell my parents - I knew they would be extremely dissapointed in me. There were other reasons as well, but looking back I feel that if I had felt like I could have told an adult who would have given me some sort of support (which my parents probably would have but I didn't realize it at the time) that I would have overcome my other "obstacles". I am in contact with a woman who runs a Heart and Hands here, it is a non-profit pregnancy and parenting crisis center. They do abortion counseling among other things. Not many of the woman who are counseled there have chosen/are considering abortion becuase it is inconvient for them. Not many of them are teenage girls, in fact we have a high teen preg rate here however most of the tees are having their babies. Many are women who feel like they can't afford to support another baby and are on welfare or are in an abusive relationship. I am not saying these women don't have other more responsible (and healthier) choices, but before we go generalizing and stereotyping, I think it is good to look at different perspectives. I would never ever ever consider abortion again for myself, even considering I may not be able to carry another pregnancy and not risk my own health (high blood pressure)- I still am recovering from the first one 12 years later. At the same time I would never ever ever make another woman feel guilty or judge a woman for making the choice she is making - yes it is murder. Yes I am a murderer. But PUHLEEZ for the the love of GOD and I mean that literally, do not go assuming things about those that choose this for themselves.
Margarita
Thursday, December 18, 2003 at 16:16:09 (EST)
PJB She wanted to be a model, well, dont we all? She actually quit her job here because she was telling me how she was going to all these doctors appts ( missing work for them ) and heard the heartbeat, picked names out ( can you believe that ) and gave me a duedate for the baby too! Here come to find out her parents never even knew, although she missed work because she was going to tell them and all. She didnt want stretch marks and get * fat *. Well, who the hell does? She didnt want to be bothered, and if she put the baby up for adoption then everyone would know she was pregnant. She didnt even tell the dad, she told him she miscarried, only because he found out she was pregnant through the grapevine ( so to speak ). Im quit sure her parents would have cared for the baby, I even told her I would take it! And I meant it too. Yes, this friend of hers, Im sure has used this pill more than that by now, but at the time I knew of 3 separate occasions. A wretch is putting it mildly!
Lyne
Thursday, December 18, 2003 at 16:16:12 (EST)
PJB- I have to agree with you on the last part.. Its just SICKENING to hear someone say I would rather KILL my child than to let him/her LIVE with someone else.. What are people thinking.. Thats just selfish.. That young lady well i guess that says it all YOUNG (minded). These children perhaps need some guidence.. That was not a good example of my point, her reasons for abortion and her friends reason for the pill.. I guess there should be a lot of stipulations(sp) on them both. Thanks PJB for not making this a heated arguement, but an adult debate or expressions of different opinions....
raye
Thursday, December 18, 2003 at 16:08:29 (EST)
Gosh Lyne, hearing that story makes me want to hurl. why in the *%&$* did she wait 4 months? what a wretch.

perfect example of how the pro abortion set is selfish, irresponsible, and morally bankrupt. People dont reserve the procedure for rape, incest and deformity, they use it as birth control. carrying to term and adopting out is too inconvenient for them. and if i hear the reason "i could not live with someone else raising my child" excuse i think my head will just explode. hmm ok "i can live with myself if i kill my baby but i cant live with myself for letting it live with a loving family." uh huh, yeah right. these folks are cloaked in illusion and deceit. they will NEVER admit that it is solely out of convenience that they choose abortion, hardly for the greater good.

Raye, there is no mystery as to why people choose abortion over adoption. Just read Lyne's post.

PJB
Thursday, December 18, 2003 at 15:52:46 (EST)
PJB, Dont get me wrong I don't think its right because it's legal. But since it is legal, that gives Amaricans the right to use it or the choice.. I personally would not, but i can't condemn those that do. And I feel that we should try to get an understanding as to why all the women chose abortion in stead of adoption. Yes, slavery was legal at one time and while the majority of the people chose to own slaves some did not, some had slaves treated them as friends or equals, paid them for their work, and gave them rights( to a certain extent), perhaps would have set them free if the law would have permited. and so and and so forth....
While I agree the we should not allow the legal system to be our guide as to how we should act as civilized beings..currenty outside of religion it is our only guide as to how to act a citizens.

raye
Thursday, December 18, 2003 at 15:02:51 (EST)
I dont agree with the morning after pill, just my opinion. Heres and example of one reason why I dont agree with it. We had a high school girl working here a couple months ago. She found out she was pregnant and was due to have her baby last month. She said she couldnt be a model if she went through with the pregnancy and had an abortion at 4 months along. She asked my opinion, and I told her that she was 18 and she should take care of her responsibilities, the right way. I told her that there are alot of people who cannot have kids. She said she couldnt stand the thought of someone else raising her child, she she killed it instead. Then, while this was going on, her friend called her and said that she was having unprotected sex, another HS girl, and this girl just told her to go take the morning after pill. then she wouldnt have to worry about it. Come to find out, this was the 3rd time she had used this pill! This is NOT birth control. People are going to start using it like its birth control, its not. Be responsible. Just my opinion. Not trying to stir the pot at all.
Lyne
Thursday, December 18, 2003 at 14:58:02 (EST)
Raye, i know your are voicing your opinion but i just wanted to offer a different perspective to your argument, just because something is legal does not make it right.

Slavery used to be legal, women voting used to be illegal, heroin used to be legal, ecstacy used to be legal....

We cant let the legal system be our only guide as to how we should act as civilized beings. Morality, spirituality and science should play a role too. The only reason abortion is legal is because some judge decided it shoud be. It was not legislated by the will of the people. Judges are former lawyers, are lawyers the most morally sound people among us? Hardly!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I have similar sentiments regarding the pill. but since it is not 100% i think that people will have false hopes and tend to be more reckless thus potentially resulting in MORE pg's and abortions.



PJB
Thursday, December 18, 2003 at 14:46:00 (EST)
I have to say that I am pretty ignorant about the details of the Thurman deal - I heard the basics on the news and I really didn't think much of it other than to shake my head.... nothing surprises me anymore. They say that love and hate are almost the same emotion... I feel she has every right to let the world know who her father is.

As for the morning after pill - I would never personally use it because - well just because. I would also never use an IUD and it sounds like they work about the same.

LH ~ ty - thought maybe you were angry about something I had posted.

Shawanda ~ hiya!!
Margarita
Thursday, December 18, 2003 at 13:23:32 (EST)
I have not posted in a while, however I've been here..
My opinion. I agree that the moring after pill should be availble. Even without a prescription.There are a lot of young girls out having sex, unprotected and end up pregnant and scared. Scared to tell their parents, scared to tell their boyfriends, doctors, scared to tell anyone. These are the stories that we here on the news everyday about babies found dead in garbage, gutters, alleys, school bathroom etc. The couldn't go to their mom and explain that there pregnant. All mother are not that understanding.. and some girls are afraid of their parents.The morning after pills is not killing babies, but could actually be saving lives..lives of the babies that could otherwise be found dead.. I feel that women should have the right to choose. We ALL won't make the same choice, but its our right. No one knows the reasons of ALL the women that have abortions. While I don't believe in abortions, I couldn't imagine carrying a child of a man that raped me, (and i know thats not all the abortions cases). Yes, that child would be a part of me, but could I love him/her the same? Honestly I'm not sure. I SURE as HELL dont agree with a child being aborted after the second or third trimester(Im in my sixth month now), but I can say it should have to depend on the circumstances. I know i could NOT do it, but there are women who do, and as horrible as it is, its LEAGAL...
WOW there is a lot to be said.. but enough on that for now..
As for the statement that was made about co-sleeping with someone else child..
WELL, although its not exactly the same. I've been raising other peoples children since i was 16, yes 16. I just returned a 5yr old back to his mother( a friend of mine). But if he had a bad night, or just wanted to be close.. He came into my bed..or my sisters bed.. and was welcomed. Ther were even times at my brothers house the he got in the bed with him and his wife.. COMFORT.. SECURITY..children need that. Is that wrong?

PLEASE this is not directed to anyone..just my opinion...

raye
Thursday, December 18, 2003 at 13:19:10 (EST)
I don't post on this board, but I wanted to say that I think it does say something that the daughter wasn't out for money. I read in an article where the reported noted she never spoke ill of her father even though he never publicly acknowledged her. I think that says something too and maybe her grandchildren and great grandchildren have a right to know their ancestor was who he was. We all have a right to know where we came from.
Just a bystander
Thursday, December 18, 2003 at 12:51:56 (EST)
Julie-

On last question: Do you think that she had no right to reveal who her father was?

He always took care of her and acknowledged that she was his daughter. Her family (children) encouraged her to go forward. She said today on the "Today Show" that she doesn't want anything from the family. She only wants to acknowledge who she is. Her father was the longest living Senator; why should she deny here grandchildren the right to know about the history of her lineage.

I think that coming out helped her to receive closure. She should be applauded for doing so; moreover, she is not just "that woman," She is Strom Thurmond's daughter.


Shawanda
Thursday, December 18, 2003 at 12:44:21 (EST)
Julie-

I think that only one person said something about race in regards to the topic.

I simply asked about the issue. I found it very interesting. I don't know how and what they are reporting in the states, but here in Germany, they are making a big issue about it. The fact that he was the strongest advocate for segregation; yet, impregnant a 16 year old child, was worthy of some reporting, well at least the "Stars and Stripes" (military paper) thought so anyway. They have posted the story three times already. They keep emphasizing that this man Hated AA; yet he didn't seem to hate them that much.

Well at least, according to reports, he took care of his responsibility for most of her life.

Not a race issue; just reporting a story and want to know what you think. No more, no less.
Shawanda
Thursday, December 18, 2003 at 12:29:43 (EST)
Thanks for the link about Storm Thurmond. It is a very interesting story. It is a race issue? Sort of. Is it gossip? Most definitely. Why in the world this woman would come forward after the poor man is dead is beyond me. This is not an issue people. If the best race issues that you can come up with are about an affair that happened decades ago, you need some better material. Wasn't that police beating and Micheal Jackson enough? Leave the dead guy alone.
Julie
Thursday, December 18, 2003 at 11:44:50 (EST)
Thanks PJB. I will be checking it out.
Lyne
Thursday, December 18, 2003 at 11:13:56 (EST)
A link reagrding strom:

http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/12/15/thurmond..paternity/index.html


PJB
Thursday, December 18, 2003 at 10:48:39 (EST)
Can someone explain the Strom Thurmund thing here to me? Im not sure what its about. Thanks in advance
Lyne
Thursday, December 18, 2003 at 10:37:27 (EST)